To beta or not to beta?

[azziria]

Interesting discussion over at powrhug's journal about a comment someone made about never reading a fic if the author didn't use a beta.

Personally, I never use a beta and never have.

Why don't I use one? If I'm honest, the main reason is largely due to insecurity and to not wanting to be a nuisance by asking anyone to do it (yes, I have issues, want to make something of it?).

There's also a big issue for me of the fic being *my* work and *my* ideas - I don't actually want anyone else's input. That's not arrogance, it's more that what I write for work isn't *mine*, it's a framework for many other people to hang their ideas off, so it often gets ripped to bits and changed over and over. My fanfic is the only thing I write that is mine and mine alone, and that I can do with as I will. (I do enjoy knocking fic ideas around with the like-minded, though!) If I were going to use a beta, it would have to be someone pretty much on my wavelength, and I don't know how easy that would be to find.

Plus, once a fic is done I want to post it and get it out of the way, I don't want it hanging around.

Of course, I write and edit (technical/medical stuff) for a living, so I'm pretty confident in my spelling and grammar. I'm also picky as hell. I'm not saying nothing ever gets through (the occasional British spelling or term, maybe), but on the whole I'm happy with what I post. I can't stand to read badly-spelled or grammatically-poor writing, and I pride myself that what I turn out isn't either of those.

But I don't make a big deal about announcing that I didn't use a beta for a fic. I have confidence that readers will judge by reading my work. If they don't like it, they can close the window, move on and avoid me in the future.

Comments

[wickedtruth.livejournal.com]

I tend to self beta, or maybe get a friend to read for typos if it's a short fic, say 2,000 words or so. Anything over 5,000 automatically gets a beta. Anything over 10,000 will get two betas, if I can find them.

Finding good betas, people you can trust and, possibly more importantly, who you are compatible with, is difficult. I don't think everyone needs a beta and honestly, I've seen stories that have apparently been betad that are still full of typos and mistakes.

I certainly wouldn't pass a fic by just because it's not been betad. I think you run the risk of missing some awesome stuff by doing that.

[azziria.livejournal.com]

I do sometimes wonder what the beta actually *did* when you read some fic (says she, uncharitably...). Or maybe the fic was *even worse* before the beta got his/her hands on it? It doesn't bear thinking about, really...

But yes, it's finding the person who's not only on your wavelength, but also has the time to do it. Not easy.

[wickedtruth.livejournal.com]

LOL Yes. It might be uncharitable, but I think the same thing. Of course, just because someone offers to beta, it doesn't necessarily follow that they're actually any good at it and if they're as bad the author...

[delicatale.livejournal.com]

I had a beta like that - I went through my fic after she read it through and I corrected typos. Which is why I turned back to my best friends, which are also my beta, and rarely ever turn down when someone wants to read my stuff.

I'm paranoid - not native English and extremely insecure when it comes to my writing sometimes. I scarcely ever post without a beta, and when I do, it's for smallish fics that I'm too excited to post to wait :').

I don't think anyone should refuse to read anything because of beta/not beta, though...what if you miss an awesome fic =/.

[azziria.livejournal.com]

If I was writing in a language that wasn't my first, I'd *definitely* use a beta. You're lucky to have good friends to read your stuff for you (although I'm not sure how much you really need it!).

[delicatale.livejournal.com]

I've been writing with stjarna1984 for 3 years, and have had her as my beta for about as long - she's never been scared to tell me when she thinks something doesn't sound right, even less now that we live together :'). And ,lj user=theellibu>'s always reading before everybody else as well and I can tell from one word or one look if she's liked it or not! And believe me, even if it's just little things, I need it!

[sofiamor.livejournal.com]

Good post, I read it with much interest :) Though I do use beta, and it's best with the people on the same wave. In LJ, I did find some. But it's truly difficult (about not wanting bo be a nuisance and some more things that you said).
Going to put a link to this in my LJ, if you don't mind :)

[azziria.livejournal.com]

No problem, link away :)

I think that if I really suspected my writing was poor, I would definitely use a beta. However while I lack confidence about many things, I'm fairly secure that my spelling, grammar etc are OK.

What I do like, though, is knocking ideas around before or as I write. That can really help character and plot development.

[shinysylver.livejournal.com]

One of my worst points is dialogue punctuation. I always did research papers in school and had forgotten how to do creative writing so I still catch myself using a "." when it should be a "," or capitalizing after a ?" when I should lower case.

But those are generally far from glaring and I will fix them as soon as I realize them. Besides, I've only had one beta that fixed them and she was a professional copy editor.

On a related topic, one of my biggest pet peeves is when people don't start a new paragraph for a new speaker. Not only is it wrong, it makes things very confusing and giant blocks of text are not fun for anyone.

Anyway, I honestly don't think some people read over their writing at all. I think they just hit post. A missing word is a mistake, a dozen is sloppy.

[azziria.livejournal.com]

As somebody who trained as a scientist and works as a technical scientific writer, dialogue punctuation is something I struggle with. However, at the end of the day what is most important is clarity - so long as it's clear who's speaking, so no-one is confused, it's not too bad and I can live with it.

And sometimes, of course (says she, starting a paragraph with 'and') you have to break the rules for dramatic effect... but then you should at least know that you're doing it!

[sofiamor.livejournal.com]

Right, knocking ideas is sometimes good. Well, I write my own fics and not fanfics, however, I like very much to see the readers' opinion about characters' behaviour and personality, events and also about details (esp. technical and historical etc.). It helps to be sure that the story is convincing, at least as a whole thing in its own, if I could call it like this.

[azziria.livejournal.com]

I'll accept the compliment gracefully :)

When I was a trainee medical writer I was trained by a woman who was a complete and utter stickler for grammar, punctuation etc being perfect. She drove me up the wall (my partner used to point out that the reason she wound me up so much was that it was the first time I'd come across somebody more fussy than me... he might have had a point...), but she gave me the best training I could possibly have had. (Interestingly she now works for me, which is great because I know and trust completely the quality of what she writes and edits for me.)

I love to toss ideas around, it's just a matter of finding the right person to do it with depending on what you feel like writing. Luckily right now I have that (although you could also say she's enabling me to do wicked, wicked things to our boys....

[delicatale.livejournal.com]

Although I'm aware enough of how people feel to make sure I note "beta'd by alamo_girl80" when it applies as a reassurance to those who care. And for the record, I never thought about *your* fics not being beta'd because they are so well-written that the question never occurred to me.


See, I'm the same - I always put my beta's name in, by respect for her and how she's helped me but also so people know I used a beta. Yet for azziria's fics I never even thought she didn't have a beta!

[alamo-girl80.livejournal.com]

You know, I was scanning this and saw my name and then this... perfectly gorgeous ass pictured right next to it.

Just... hang on, I know I have a point to this comment I'm just...distracted by lovely ass...

[delicatale.livejournal.com]

He's got a lovely face, too! http://www.flickr.com/photos/23649932@N07/5458133579/ - yes yes he does.

[shinysylver.livejournal.com]

I commented over at the other post that my long stuff I find a beta for but other things I don’t usually. If one of my good fandom friends is available I may get my shorter stuff looked at but that is all dependent. Most of the time when I finish a piece I want to purge myself of it by posting.

I know I make the occasional mistake but I can usually find most errors by reading through it a few times myself. My grammar and punctuation aren’t perfect but if I can’t edit a short fic to the point where there are no glaring errors then my parents need to get a refund on my BA and my MLIS degrees. Seriously.

There have been times when a beta was a requirement and I had to get one on short notice. One of those times, I then had to go back through and fix all of the “corrections” they made. And by corrections I mean they dropped the ALL of the “hads” changing Past Perfect to simple Past Tense making no sense at all. *sigh*

So yeah, a good beta is great but a bad one is worse than none. I think it all depends on the writer.

[azziria.livejournal.com]

I think if you find a good beta who you're on the right wavelength with then it must be really good.

If I ever wrote something *really* long then I might try to find a beta for it, just to make sure the pacing worked. For the shorter stuff, though, I trust my own instincts.

[ariadnes-string.livejournal.com]

It's an interesting issue--and I can completely understand why you don't. I would never not read a fic just because it isn't beta'd (I know plenty of excellent writers who never use betas)--but I absolutely will stop reading if the writing is too messy, or there are too many unmotivated POV shifts (something I hate).

I sometimes use a beta and sometimes don't. Like you, I write for a living, and I'm not worried about my grammar or spelling. If it's something short--in a genre or fandom I'm confident in--I don't. Or, on the opposite side of the spectrum, if it's some kind of porn I feel very self-conscious about and can barely admit to myself I've written ;). If it's a longer story, or something I'm less comfortable with in terms of characterization, then I usually do try to find somebody to read it through.

I think it's good to find somebody on your wavelength, but it's also good to have someone who's eye you trust who isn't swept away by the kinds of things you are, to sweep a cooler eye over the project. The person who's been beta'ing my Sherlock fic lately, for instance, is great at pointing out when I've gotten sucked into my protagonist's mental state, and have forgotten why everybody else is there :)

I also do a lot of beta'ing for people--mostly because I can't stand the idea of fic not getting the readers it should because of non-native-speaker issues or tense shifts. I've come to realize that most people really want a test audience--to hear what works best about the story--before they put it out there. Most fanfic writers want to write and post fast (myself included)--so I totally get that--

I hardly ever have things Brit-picked though (though I sometimes use the Sherlock brit_pick com)--and I suppose I should....

[redfish-123.livejournal.com]

I feel lucky to have a beta. She is very understanding that i am a rough writer (slowly getting better) and yes, I learn from her questions. She doe not make value judgements as to my writing.

For me is essential right now in my process however, that does not preclude my reading unbeta'd stories and everyone has different confidence levels. I mean if you watched me do watercolours they are definatly unbeta'd as my confidence level is very high.

Each craft has its own disciplines and its adherents.

[ariadnes-string.livejournal.com]

yeah, absolutely, and people practice their crafts in different ways (no beta in the world would help my painting skills, for instance!). But it's great you have a good beta--I know what you mean about learning from your beta's questions--sometimes I catch myself now before I do something one of my betas would be all over :)

[delicatale.livejournal.com]

This. My beta is my best friend, which could not work at all but she's blunt and she won't hesitate in telling me if I'm fucking something up.

And - yes. I feel the need to have people's opinions before posting anything. Especially if I'm not confident through the whole of it. I'd rather take something out or change things before I post it and regret it...

[ariadnes-string.livejournal.com]

yeah--I think people really often just need to know that it's okay. I've beta'd a couple of H50 fics, especially, that are pretty much perfect, but the person was feeling anxious about posting for some reason....

[azziria.livejournal.com]

I'll stop reading if there are too many mistakes, or confusing/irritating POV shifts. I'm pretty good by now at knowing within a paragraph or two whether to continue reading or back out there and then.

The Brit-pick/Ameri-pick thing is an issue. I know that as a Brit, I've read some otherwise excellent Sherlock fics that have been marred by a minor detail (one the other day had John and Sherlock referring to condoms as 'rubbers', a term I *never* hear used over here). I hope that my readers would pick me up if they spotted something too British in one of my H5-0 fics - I know the odd thing creeps in, but not often enough that I feel I need to get everything beta-ed. I'm also working for US clients at the moment, so *everything* is American spellings etc (and don't get me started on 'momentarily'...).

[ariadnes-string.livejournal.com]

yeah, weirdly, the British/American idiom thing doesn't bother me in fics nearly as much as grammar issues or POV shifts--the odd "flat" for "apartment" or "arsehole" for "asshole" (or vice versa) doesn't throw me out of the fic. But I guess it does for some people?

I won't change my spelling, tho'. (ie, won't change "color" for "colour")--it matters to me that things sound British, but not that they look British, if you know what I mean. This is an academic convention (not to change), and just what I'm used to.

[azziria.livejournal.com]

See, I do try to use American spellings in my American-based fic, because I'm a bit anal like that. Although American spellings in a British-based fic don't bother me - what *does* bother me is if someone switches about between the two in one fic (consistency, children, consistency...).

Of course I do ensure that I use the proper, British spellings in my replies to comments... *g*

[marquesate.livejournal.com]

The concept of a "beta" is such a strange one. Of course I use editors, I don't have a choice when getting published, and of course I use proof readers, but a "beta" who tells me what they would do? Sod that for a lark.

As for your fic, it has an excellent standard, you absolutely do not need anyone.

[azziria.livejournal.com]

Thanks, m'dear :)

I do enjoy knocking ideas around with someone, though (I have very fond memories of our Norrington/Groves collaboration all those years ago!). At the moment I'm discussing ideas with someone who is enabling me in a deliciously dark direction of the sort that you would totally appreciate... ;)

[marquesate.livejournal.com]

Mmmm yes! I always remember our Groves & Norrington collaboration very fondly. :-p

Knocking ideas around is brilliant, like a sounding board, but that's not a beta, is it?

[redfish-123.livejournal.com]

More "firestarter" stories? yea!

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

I think 'beta' is a very broad umbrella term that can mean, to different people interpreting it, anything from "basic proofreader" to "I can't figure out what should be happening here, what do you think?"

My own personal definition of a beta reader is a second set of eyes. When I have someone beta for me, I ask them to look a story over for basic cohesiveness, and to make sure I don't have any glaring plot holes or obvious word screw-ups. I don't want someone telling me what they would do with my story--unless I specifically ask them for that, and I can count on one hand the number of times that's happened.

:)

[kare.livejournal.com]

You and I have a lot of the same views on it I think. If I wrote 30k fic I'd use someone as a proofreader, but I don't really care if I have someone to give me feedback on what works or not. Like you I don't think that's arrogance, I just have a clear vision of what I want the fic to be/say and I probably wouldn't change it even if someone told me I should.

But then again, my "long" is 1200 words, so there's not much I can screw up in that few of words! I doubt I'd get characterization wrong in that amount of time...or drop a plot point, that sort of thing.

And like you I'm an editor in the real world. Which does NOT mean I don't make mistakes (my typeos in my posts prove that...but I don't reread my posts) but I think I have a good eye for that sort of thing after doing it for 8 - 10 hours a day for around 20 years now. Or I should! ha!

[portraitofafool.livejournal.com]

I don't use a beta and I never have. I don't feel like I need one and like you, that isn't arrogance or anything of the sort, but I do know how to spell and I'm uptight enough about punctuation that I know how to use it. I actually sometimes wonder if I'm too proper with my punctuation by the time I have something fully polished (which can be up to month after I've posted) because a lot of what I do isn't stuff that's common practice even though it is correct.

Poor grammar is only excusable if it’s used in dialog, however, grammar that is too formal in a piece of fiction can also be a drawback. The lack of contractions in some stories (amongst other things) leads to entirely too much formality/science report level stiffness, where in fiction it’s not common and not necessary; is in fact in some instances detrimental to the story itself. That sort of thing is particularly evident in dialog because it just looks wrong when a character says, “No, I do not wish to go with you to the market” when that character would’ve realistically said something more like, “Hell no, I ain’t goin’ to the store with you”.

I nitpick and that's the end of it, but I feel that I do it well on my own. I'd feel very strange if suddenly, years after I first started writing, I decided I needed a beta. I may leave out a word (in fact it is my #1 Writing Sin) but I will also catch that on a read-through and ta-da, it's all good. I actually find it easier to edit once I have something posted here on LJ; I catch things I missed reading over it in Word. It may seem odd, but it works for me.

I don't "warn" for my fics being unedited because I don't feel that I need to and for someone to say they won't read a fic that hasn't had a beta is just stupid silly. There is so much crap floating around out there that's been beta'd that there are not words for it. I actually think some of the best stories I have ever read actually didn't have beta-readers.

Also, like you and a some others on this post, I see fics occasionally that may have five (or more) betas and they're the most slapped together, poorly spelled and punctuated piles of crap I have ever seen. I think using a beta is a joke a lot of the time. Betas are test audiences more than anything, but if said "test audience" is your closest group of friends, most of them will likely lie and tell you it's perfect when it clearly is not. Obviously that is not always the case, but a lot of the time it is. I would rather edit my own work and actually correct it than have someone read it and add commas or just do nothing at all.

Bad spelling, grammar and punctuation are all things that will have me running for the hills about a paragraph in. I'm hypercritical of things like that and when I read something I want a tight, well polished and put together story; having a beta (or six) in no way guarantees that. I found a fic the other night where the second or third word was "wounded" (the author meant "wound" as in "they wound up on the couch"). There were several other massive boo-boos in that story and those are just ones I picked up skimming it. I do believe--though I can't say for certain since it has been a couple of days now--that the fic I am referring to had a beta. Great job, beta! *headdesk*

I do edit for a couple of people, one person almost exclusively and she wound up asking me to do that for her because I was the only one who did anything. When I edit, I do nothing more than basic spelling, grammar and punctuation. I will also break run-on sentences because when you've got a sentence that's a paragraph long... it needs to be broken. I will not pick a storyline apart or anything like that unless I am specifically asked to do so or there's a plot hole in it the size of the Grand Canyon then I may point that out.

So, yes, I really don’t understand why someone would refuse to read a story that had not been beta-read because that really means absolutely nothing from everything I have seen.

/ramble

[sans-souci2.livejournal.com]

" So, yes, I really don’t understand why someone would refuse to read a story that had not been beta-read because that really means absolutely nothing from everything I have seen."

yes, that.

well said !

[azziria.livejournal.com]

I edit on LJ, too. I write in Word (or Simpletext if I'm on the mobile), but everything gets put up onto my journal locked for me to read through. It's as though that gives me the space I need to look at it objectively - somewhere in my brain is the idea that Word is for writing, and LJ for reading fic,so putting a WIP there gives me the chance to look at my own work with a new eye. And of course I still tweak stuff even once it's been posted to the comms, if I notice something that I can't leave well alone.

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

To beta or not to beta, indeed. *g*

But I don't make a big deal about announcing that I didn't use a beta for a fic.

A WORLD OF YES TO THIS.

I think the thing that bugs me -- and often will guarantee that I don't read a story -- isn't whether someone used a beta or not, but that they felt an overwhelming need to broadcast it. "NOT BETA'D SORRY". Or something like that.

Why say anything at all? I generally thank my betas in my notes, but not always because I have a couple of friends who don't want to be named, which is their decision. So I just don't say anything either way. I don't think anything of it if it's not mentioned at all, but when someone goes out of their way to advertise, or tacks on the "Not beta'd because this is just for fun, and I'm not taking it seriously" line that I've seen around in various formats, well. If they don't want to take it seriously, it's not up to me to try and change their mind, but I'm probably not going to waste my time. It could be the best damn story ever written...but headers/author notes are not the place to be copping an attitude.

People didn't use to broadcast about their betas (or lack thereof). At least I'm pretty sure they didn't. I've been writing and posting fanfic online since 1996, and it's only been in the last five or six years that I've really noticed it's become some kind of trend. Maybe it's newer fans? I don't know.

Ugh, I'm sorry, what was the question again? *sheepish look*

[azziria.livejournal.com]

The problem with deliberately flagging that you didn't use a beta for a fic is that it immediately sets off bells in my head that you think the fic is really poor, which actually puts me off reading it.

I know what you mean about seeing more about betas these days, that's my perception, too.

[alba17.livejournal.com]

Interesting topic. I don't usually bother with a beta for shorter things. However, I'm really insecure about my writing and I always think it sucks, so I like having someone else read it over. I'm not worried about grammar, etc., more about creative stuff, although it's nice to have a 2nd eye catch things like repeated words. It can be really nervewracking, especially if the person just jumps to the negative and doesn't find something positive to say. Because then I assume they don't like it at all and it's really terrible. I've also had betas who didn't give me any useful feedback at all and that's frustrating, when I know there are things that can be improved.

I don't know why people announce they didn't use a beta. I assume if one isn't listed, there wasn't one. I've had the same experience of reading something that was beta'd, and honestly, you can't tell, what with all the typos and grammatical errors. I agree with the comment above that the big announcement of not having a beta is more of a red flag to me than simply not listing one. Because obviously there are people like you who are perfectly competent, write brilliantly and don't use a beta.

[azziria.livejournal.com]

Now you're *really* making me blush!

I think I might show something to a beta if I felt I'd got really stuck with it, if you know what I mean. Or if I felt there was something... missing, maybe, or not quite right about it. Because sometimes an external eye can see something obvious that you're too close to see yourself.

Strange, though, that your insecurity over your writing is what makes you show it to a beta, whereas my insecurity over mine does just the opposite!

[shinysylver.livejournal.com]

I'm the same. There are some pieces that I get very insecure about and showing them to one person that I trust to tell me the truth makes me much more confident about posting them.

[azziria.livejournal.com]

The spelling is easy, because I'm currently working for US clients and so have my spell checker set to US English. Where I fall down occasionally is where words have slightly different usage or meaning - such as the subtly different way we use 'mad' and 'crazy'. And as I've already said somewhere above, don't even get me started on 'momentarily'...

Spelling doesn't throw me in Brit fics written by Americans, but incorrect word usage can - most Brits wouldn't be able to tell you what a faucet is, a trunk belongs on an elephant and not a car, our babies don't wear diapers, and we can walk along the pavement without getting run over. Turning things the other way around, I avoid 'gotten' because I really have no idea of its correct usage...

[azziria.livejournal.com]

We use 'momentarily' to mean 'for a moment' not 'in a moment'. So we might say 'she was momentarily blinded by the light', meaning she was blinded for a few seconds. But we'd not say 'I'll be with you momentarily' to mean 'I'll be with you soon', we'd say 'I'll be with you in a moment'. But I occasionally hear the American usage creeping into interviews etc on the radio news, and it makes me shriek at the radio (as does 'data' being used in the singular - it's 'the data show' not 'the data shows', goddammit!).

[alamo-girl80.livejournal.com]

I think using a beta/editor is a personal choice. If you feel you have a good enough handle on things, especially in long fics, go for it.

I know how to spell and have a generally good handling of grammar and such, but when I write, I write like a rainstorm - all at once to get it all out on paper. Of course there will be typos and homonym errors (they KILL me) but often, I don't want to sit and go through it all. I've spent 2 days writing something in the snippets of time I have allotted, I don't want to spend more time when I have a beta friend who will do it for me.

Now, knowing stuff and knowing it WELL are two distinct things and I know where my writing weaknesses lie. That's why I'll always have a beta. I hate rereading my work and seeing little stupid mistakes that people have sometimes pointed out in comments and have to go back and change them. ( the obvious exception would be using a foreign language slang like pidgin)

I guess I'm used to having my stuff ripped apart because in my graduate fiction classes, that's exactly what happened. We were forced to sit there, not say a word while the professor and the class took our story apart piece by piece. Nerve-wracking? Oh yes. Did I learn from it? Hell yes.

Now having someone TELL me what to do in fic? Not really. I like having in-script comments where my beta will ask why something was done, or give a suggestion of how to clarify, but I always view beta comments as guidelines, not rules. If I think I got my point across the way I wanted, I leave it. I've never had someone tell me, "change this and do it THIS way" in a beta before.

Knocking about ideas? Those are the best. Especially with taking the characters to different places than I'm used to writing. I love it when a friend has an idea that I never even thought of, a new way of seeing the character or the plot and the merging of like minds, as you say. As always, if someone helps me in anyway, I give them credit at the beginning of the story.

[azziria.livejournal.com]

I'm totally in awe of you being able to take the concrit in class like that - I would be so out of my comfort zone that I don't think I could face it.

[alamo-girl80.livejournal.com]

Oh God, I just kept sinking further and further into my seat, arms crossed over my chest, like I was trying to disappear. But we DID get to defend out stuff after the first "ripping" was done.

What was really bad was when we had a guest author - who was award wining for a collection of stories - come in and read some of the stories. He chose mine and a friend of mine's stories to talk about in class. When my story was named I nearly fell out of my seat.

Lets put it this way, my fanfiction is TONS better than my original stuff. Wish to this day I could have gotten away with writing fic.